Not to be outdone by the lesser mayors, Multibillionaire Michael Bloomberg sent the NYPD storm troopers to Zuccotti Park in the wee hours to clear out the Occupy camp in a surprise raid. About 100 people were arrested. Read the Times, and then read the comments. This is not over. More later......
Update: For better coverage, read the hometown paper for constant updates/liveblog. Beware of the right-wing opinion bilge starting to bubble up. Or just laugh at it.
Here is The Gothamist's excellent reporting, including a story of how the NYPD suppressed coverage and harrassed journalists.
And great coverage, as usual, from DemocracyNow!
And even more (thanks DreamsAmelia for sending the links):
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution
http://www.occupystream.com/
http://www.livestream.com/occupywallstnyc
18 comments:
This comment by J.C. from San Diego sums it up nicely on the NYT site:
Pardon me, but what exactly were the protestors thinking the end-game was going to be? World revolution? A Marxist free state established in a land-locked park in the middle of the US?
You camped out for 8 weeks violating city ordinances. You claimed to be knowingly doing so ("civil disobedience") because of... I don't know, something. The police came in, said to start following the law or you'd be arrested. You didn't follow the law, so you were arrested. Congratulations.
And don't miss DemocracyNow! coverage---they got to the park just after 1 a.m.---you can watch the broadcast on demand anytime, for free, at www.democracynow.org
Priceless to see Amy salvaging the book, _Brave New World, Revisted_ from the People's Library. And there are 2 resignations in the Oakland Mayor's office after the clearing of the Oakland encampment....!
@George,
Zuccotti Park is but a geographical location. Occupy is a state of mind. Read any poll, and you will see the vast majority wholeheartedly are behind it -- and are even a part of it. The 99% comprise more than 300 million people. The Forbes 400 are just that.
Meanwhile, a judge has issued a temporary restraining order which in effect retroactively abjures the police from dismantling the settlement.
Glad that you have chosen to "hang out" on this site, George. All are welcome, provided the posts are minimally civil. Maybe you can learn something from the many thoughtful commenters who take the time to contribute.
George,
What exactly is your "endgame". It appears you plan to occupy Sardonicky.
What are you trying to accomplish?
Have you been to an Occupy movement in your city? Perhaps you need to get thee to one for a little education. We are not asking to be freed of "legal and financial obligations". We don't want the 1%s stuff. We want a more just society. That may be hard for you to wrap your head around, however. I have come to the conclusion that many of the critics of OWS simply lack the imagination to understand that for a lot of us money ain't everything.
Kat, what is a more just society? Is it taking from some who have earned it to give to others who have not? Would you be so kind as to define it in clear and concise terms?
I like definition, but not the hazy, fuzzy kind. I do suspect there are many who claim allegiance to the OWS gangs who have a clear purpose in mind but the gang’s leaders, if there are any, have done an incredibly poor job of expressing whatever “it” is. I suspect they either can’t or won’t given the probability the people of the USA will simply reject it.
I appreciate your invitation to visit a OWS site but must decline; my head would probably explode.
Defecating in a public park seems an odd way to express a political idea or objective. Yes, I know, not everyone approves of all the “occupiers” actions but we are a nation of laws. It seems quite hypocritical to shriek about evil corporations alleged legal offenses when the “occupiers” are themselves scofflaws. Ms. Garcia claims to know the views of 300 million people – wow, she must be really tuned in. I wouldn’t claim to know the views of my own brother.
Am I required to have an “endgame” to state my opinions or question the opinions of the blog master or any poster on this site? Besides, I don’t hang out here; I find the debate to be pretty ideology driven and tending to unsupported generalizations. But, I don’t mind screaming a few facts in the theatre of the absurd.
I think it more than a coincidence that moves have been made against a number of OWS encampments in the last few days.
Obviously, the movement has resonated with the powers that be.
A positive sign!
Hopefully, we can regroup, and regenerate.
The beating of unarmed Americans, the willful destruction of property -- all criminal actions. Besides being a power move, this will justify in some minds a need for retaliatory destruction. Could Bloomberg be trying to incite?
"Defecating in a public park seems an odd way to express a political idea or objective. Yes, I know, not everyone approves of all the “occupiers” actions but we are a nation of laws. It seems quite hypocritical to shriek about evil corporations alleged legal offenses when the “occupiers” are themselves scofflaws."
Ah, George. You really miss the point. Here is what they are protesting Some "scofflaws" are punished and some are not. And that has to do with money and access to power. Really, the fewer the crime affects, the more likely you are to be punished.
Kat wrote, “Ah, George. You really miss the point. Here is what they are protesting Some "scofflaws" are punished and some are not. And that has to do with money and access to power. Really, the fewer the crime affects, the more likely you are to be punished.”
I would certainly agree with the point regarding the salubrious effect of money and access to power. The number of people affected by the crime usually has little to do with it.
The point I’m still missing is what OWS really means to achieve and how they intend to achieve it. The bulk of Wall Street (and union) political contributions have been made to and continue to go to Obama and the Democrats who supposedly are for the little guy. Neil’s lecture on the various activities and products of major financial firms, including banks, should have been easy prey to a political party supposedly focused on protecting the consumer.
Republicans are bad enough but the Democrats had the power and responsibility to rein it in and they did nothing other than to require banks to make bad loans and absolve them of the unfavorable consequences by using taxpayer money to eliminate their risk. The point is you need to look out for yourself which includes not borrowing more than you are able to repay and not assuming your income (job or business) is secure.
Here it is again, in reference to mayors, “I love that none of them are talking about why Occupy is doing this.” Can anyone define the “why”?
No George R, this comment in response to the NYT article sums it up -
Them or Us
New York
Many of the anti=OWS people have written here that there was no need for a physical occupation of the park, that there are other means of making their political statement. I disagree.
People have been saying making these statements on line for years, but our comments have been dismissed. We have had no voice in this government = even the candidate of "Hope and Change" has followed the line of most of George W. Bush's policies. He allowed his health care initiative to be watered down, first by the pharmaceutical companies, then by Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats. The current health care act is a small step in the right direction, but remains grossly insufficient regarding the level of need for health care in our society. We are in a jobs crisis, and the party that gained control of the House of Representatives on the platform of focusing on job creation has been active on every plank of their traditional agenda and done nothing, NOTHING, about jobs. Students are unable to pay their loans without jobs. Veterans are unable to reintegrate into mainstream society without jobs. Americans over 50 have lost their retirement funds and are unable to afford to pay their mortgages and pay for health insurance without jobs. Our elected officials know this, but have done nothing about it.
In light of this inactivity, what are people to do to effect change? A number of young people decided that creating a physical presence to highlight these and other issues might make a difference. It has. Finally, most Americans are aware of these problems, and most agree with the concepts, if not the methods. Do not be distracted by the drum circle, the appearance of those who occupied Zuccotti Park, or the din created by the media saying that these people have no single message. They do have a message, and if you just take a moment and ask yourself why your problems are not being addressed by our government, while they bail out banks and conduct wars of choice, you can hear that message.
George,
Ha Ha Ha! You're kidding me. You are making the leap that because I support Occupy I am profligate with my finances?
When we bought a house in 1998 it was the bank that told us we should keep in mind that we'll be making more in the future when they qualified us for much more than we felt comfortable with. The realtor encouraged us to look for houses at a higher price point than we wanted to. We stuck to our guns. Yeah, yeah the banks were really forced to give out more money than they wanted. Righto.
We always paid cash for our home improvements. Our mortgage is our only debt. We are paying ahead of schedule. We benefited from purchasing when interest rates were higher and consequently prices were lower-- when we refinanced we shortened the life of the loan.
Your ideology really says nothing about your personal finances. It probably does say something about your willingness to lecture others on "personal responsibility" though.
Oh-- and George, you are mistaken if you think you stumbled into a den of Obama and Democratic party supporters here. We are well aware that Obama has the support of Wall Street. I would argue with your contention that "the bulk" of Wall Street money goes to Democratic party pols. This is simply not true. Wall Street always hedges their bets.
George: “Am I required to have an “endgame” to state my opinions or question the opinions of the blog master or any poster on this site?”
Valerie: No, but you need to have EDUCATED opinions and not just be restating right wing propaganda that you have heard somewhere else. So cite some decent sources instead of echoing Fox.
George:“Besides, I don’t hang out here; I find the debate to be pretty ideology driven and tending to unsupported generalizations.”
Valerie: You are lecturing US on unsupported generalisations? “By the way, I was told by a German in Germany that free college education ended in Germany several years ago . . .” “I also have a good friend whose mother lived in Germany (now deceased) who couldn't get medication near the end of the month because her physician had already met his prescription quota – rationing?” Really impressive sources you have there, George! A good friend whose mother is now dead! I was told by a German in Germany – Yeah, you are really impressing us all with your supported generalisations! - I have a friend who knows a guy who is a Klu Klux Klan member who is a Republican and thinks Fox is fair and balanced – so it must be true!
George: “But, I don’t mind screaming a few facts in the theatre of the absurd.”
Valerie: Still waiting for some facts, George! All I am hearing is the screaming from the Fox theatre of the absurd -
Hey, George, we feel for you. It must not be easy being a Ron Paul Libertarian when your candidate is spinning his wheels, getting no attention from the media.
Your energy must be totally deflated, not just by that fact, but by knowing that the Ron Paul Revolution is dead and that the OWS Revolution has taken it's place. It also must be galling to realize that OWS is not only a nationwide movement but a worldwide one, because it's about big money buying governments, including our own.
We realize you probably feel totally left out of the action, and maybe a bit lonely, which is why you came to this website, to get some attention for yourself. Hey, you had been thinking you were part of a powerful movement (we can relate), but that fizzled. Your candidate isn't the right messenger and doesn't have the right message for the times. He does come closer in some important areas than all the other Republicans, including Obama, but what difference does that make? Big Money doesn't like him. End their Fed? I don't think so.
So George, we understand your disappointment and frustration that you have a losing candidate. They're all losers, so don't we all! If you could just lose your attitude and your need to feel unrealistically superior towards others who are not just more educated and intelligent than you are, but wealthier too (surprise!), you might find yourself a home within the OWS Revolution.
Occupy!
“So George, we understand your disappointment and frustration that you have a losing candidate. They're all losers, so don't we all! If you could just lose your attitude and your need to feel unrealistically superior towards others who are not just more educated and intelligent than you are, but wealthier too (surprise!), you might find yourself a home within the OWS Revolution.”
It’s nice to know I have a candidate – news to me – as is my “disappointment and frustration”. It would be really nice if those “more educated and intelligent” could articulate some specific program or objective besides urban camping and screaming revolution.
I do admire the energy and dedication of the young but when ideology overwhelms common sense the results can be, to borrow a phrase from the computer industry, unpredictable.
My personal finances are just that, personal. I have bought and sold nine personal residences in four different states plus constructed and sold 26 to others so I do know a little bit about the real estate business and how real estate transactions are done and mortgages arranged. Eight of the nine personal residences were sold at a gain and the last was sold at a substantial loss. I saw what was happening and dumped it, not a bad move in spite of the loss.
The last home was purchased with a sizeable mortgage for which I produced almost zero documentation regarding income and net worth; lenders were indeed shoving money at prospective borrowers. One did not have to be particularly brilliant to realize the bubble was going to burst. I had seen it twice in California and twice in Maryland; what happened here in FL was no surprise.
I’m not “unrealistically superior” to anyone. My after military service work history started with programmer trainee and ended at the CFO level in a multi-billion dollar corporation. I ran my own real estate business for about ten years after my big evil corporation experience.
As for finding a home in the “OWS Revolution”, I wouldn’t cohabitate with anyone who doesn’t know where they are going and has no clue how to get there. However, I suppose if you don’t know where you are going any road will take you there.
George, I question why you repeatedly demand to know where the OWS movement is going and how we intend to get there.
For someone who doesn't support OWS, you sure are fishing around a lot for information about 'specific programs and objectives' and 'end games'. Why? You will soon learn that we play by our own game by our own rules, and that's why we will win.
Let me say first that I see beauty all around the OWS movement. First it placed the focus squarely at the heart of the Empire, which is what they have been trying to keep hidden. Then OWS stayed in their face by not just protesting, but camping at Zucotti Park, inducing the powers that be to send out their proxy army in riot gear. That speaks more loudly about the police state we live in than anything that could be said by individual protesters. Beautiful.
Much is being revealed, finally, thanks to the Occupiers who allegedly have no coherent message, no leaders, no strategy, no playbook.
I admit I set some bait out for you, George. Some political and a few personal items to see which one you would bite on so we could see what kind of fish was trolling in these waters. You didn't bite at the political issues, but you did take the financial bait, hook, line, and sinker. Your lengthy response revealed what kind of fish you are: Shark. Money is near and dear to your heart, which makes you obviously a poor fit for OWS, no matter how many goals and strategies you discover about it.
Baited, hooked, and caught. I admit that I have NO idea of the financial status of others who comment on this website. I only know their intellectual prowess which I greatly admire.
Don't underestimate OWS. What is said or done can provoke revealing reactions, what is not said or done can speak volumes, and ultimately, what is hidden will come to light.
Occupy!
George,
It is really interesting how many people like you are driven crazy by the fact that OWS hasn't given out a list of demands. I have to admit, at first I felt the same way but now that I see how well this strategy has thrown the 1% off their game, I have to be impressed by the strategy. The thing is, people like me know exactly what they want - it is people like you who can't figure it out. So I will tell you what the protesters want, we want a Middle Class Republic.
We don't care that people like you have more than we do; we aren't envious or jealous of your success. It might surprise someone like you to know that most of us don't aspire to be rich. Most of us just want to have some kind of meaningful work that pays enough for us to have a small house – nothing extravagant – in a safe neighbourhood where we can raise our families. We want our children to go to decent schools and if they are academically inclined, to be able to afford for them to go to college – not a fancy Ivy League college - just a good state college or university. We want to know if we or one of our loved ones gets a terrible disease that we can get the medical care we need and that we won’t be financially ruined by our illness. We want to know that our food and our water are safe to consume. We want to know that if we want to work hard, that we can find a job that pays a liveable wage.
We just don't think it is fair that so many of the ultra-rich got their money by bribing (lobbying, contributing to political campaigns) legislators into tilting the playing field in their favour and at our expense. We don’t like that government agencies that are meant to regulate corporations which are breaking laws or bending laws are now “captured agencies” and bend over backwards to help those corporations pollute the water and air or game the system. We don’t like it that these big corporations privatise their gains and socialise their losses and that no matter how badly they behave, they get to keep on doing it. (The most obvious example: the big banks crashed our economy because they speculated – recklessly - and needed to be bailed out. Why weren’t laws put (back) in place to keep that from happening again?) We don’t like it that when legislation is put into place, the corporations which are meant to be regulated by it, are party to writing it. That the legislation is written so that before it is even put into law, the corporations have used the loopholes (they made sure were in the legislation) to get around obeying the law.
That is what OWS is about - that is why people are angry and frustrated - And I really have to ask you, did you read the comment in the NY Times that I recommended in an earlier comment? Because that is part of the problem too. Our government doesn’t seem to listen to the majority of people anymore. Maybe people like you have a voice in government. Maybe because of your money and the social status it gives you, you HAVE influence. But most of us don't. I have written hundreds of letters and made hundreds of phone calls over the years - to the president, to my members of Congress, to my local officials. Nothing works. All people like me - the 99% - have left is to peacefully take to the streets in big enough numbers that we are at least noticed by the government that is supposed to be representing us. It is all we have left of our democracy. And don’t tell me we have a vote. Because we are given such terrible choices our vote doesn’t matter. Obama is a total sell-out and the Republicans running for office have plans that will destroy our democracy. Who should we vote for? The Democratic Party won’t give us a good candidate that represents the 99%, the Republicans sure won’t, and you and I both know it takes millions to run for office. You tell me. What else can we do to take part in our democracy so that our country is preserved for our children?
Valerie, congratulations for admitting the obvious - “baiting” me. The very idea someone felt compelled to “vet” a poster on this site is interesting – the “if I want your opinion I’ll give it to you” approach.
You seem like a genuinely nice person so why the use of disparagement?
“We don't care that people like you have more than we do; we aren't envious or jealous of your success.”
Then why spend your time obsessing over it? You seem to want a lot of things, none of which I find inappropriate, and most of which I would support. Your frustration with feeling your voice is not being heard is understandable.
“Don't underestimate OWS. What is said or done can provoke revealing reactions, what is not said or done can speak volumes, and ultimately, what is hidden will come to light.”
I don’t care much for hidden agendas.
“…people like you are driven crazy by the fact that OWS hasn't given out a list of demands.” I don’t know about “crazy” but I’ve always believed the chance of reaching a goal is much higher is the goal is defined.
Are you familiar with Thirty-Thousand.Org?
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/
Their pamphlet “Taking Back Our Republic” is an interesting read. It speaks to some of your concerns.
Post a Comment